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Soundmanpt 06 Jul 2018, 07:31


Well someone is having a lot of fun pretending to be other people as well as me.

The comment posted on "05 Jul 2018 21:39" wasn't by me.

Weirdeyes 06 Jul 2018, 01:47

That was not me. There was no change to my prescription.

Weirdeyes 05 Jul 2018, 22:01


Meet me in lenschat, and we can discuss this further.

Weirdeyes 05 Jul 2018, 21:59

Yes it certainly is.

I am quite excited about the possibility of now being nearsighted.

My mom is nearsighted, so possibly her genes have contributed to this.

And yes, it was a wet refraction, in more ways than one.

My panties were so wet, that it soaked through my jeans.

Soundmanpt 05 Jul 2018, 21:39

This is an interesting development in you're prescription history.

Was this a wet refraction?

Weirdeyes 05 Jul 2018, 21:20

As many here are aware, I have recently been in vision training.

Just this week my trainer/optometrist gave me a new prescription to wear constantly. This now is a minus .75 for each eye,with no correction for my astigmatism, and no prism.

He did not explain why this change, but I will find out more tomorrow when I pick up the glasses.

When he had me behind the phoropter, the best vision that I attained, was with this prescription. However when he took the phoropter away, both of my eyes had a sensation of a tightly wound coil spring being suddenly released, if that makes any sense.

He did tell me going into the program that there would be several prescription changes, as the program progresses.

His ultimate goal is to have me completely free of glasses.

EyepatchGirl 27 Nov 2017, 00:05

everything's fuzzy: The opaque lens is a good idea. I already tried a frosted lens but the fuzzy light irritates me and makes my eye cross even more. Will ask my optician. Thanks!

 24 Nov 2017, 20:36


everything's fuzzy 24 Nov 2017, 20:35

Eyepatch girl, you might have your option put a frosted lens in your glasses for the affected eye. This will allow light to enter your eye, but not focusable vision. This way you won't need towear the patch and most people will not notice the one lens of your glasses being "clouded". Of course this would be on a spare pare of glasses. The other option is to wear an opaque contact lens on the affected eye.

EyepatchGirl 22 Nov 2017, 06:55

I have a question concerning my eyepatch, are there any other possibilities for me than wearing it? I like it but sometimes I just want to decide if I want to wear it or not.

My rx is R +6.5 add. +2 and L +9.5 -0,75 80° add. +2, I have Franklin style bifocals. I have very bad strabismus that means my eyes turn in even when I wear glasses. Mostly I wear an eyepatch on my right eye because it's easier to see this way although the left is my amblyopic eye. Prisms were tried but they did not work because my strabismus angle just changes too much. My problem is that I can't see straight even with one eye when both are open, I need to cover one eye so the other one can see straight.

Does anybody here know of something like special glasses that help me seeing even without covering one eye? Or are there any training programs for my eyes?

Any help is appreciated!

Likelenses 16 Aug 2016, 20:44

Cactus Jack

In two of the older books on ophthalmology that I have, { one is 1926,and the other 1960,and different authors },they both make a strong point that only perfectly round lenses are completely accurate in their prescription.

astigmaphile 12 Aug 2016, 19:53

Cactus Jack,

Thank you for the info.

Cactus Jack 12 Aug 2016, 18:52


The amount of PLUS I need to neutralize the excess "MINUS" seems related to the amount of prism, but not absolutely. The 15/15 BO works pretty well with +1.00 contacts or clip-ons and the 23/23 BO work pretty well with +1.25 or +1.50. I have some 20/20 BO that don't need very much extra PLUS, at all. It is complicated a bit by apparent Induced Cylinder at the higher values. It may be related to the way the lenses are mounted in the frames which affects the angle of incidence of the Central Axis of Vision on the back surface of the lens.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about lens design or have the tools to fully analyze it. Part of it could be the location of the Optical Center of the lens. Pure Prism Lenses do not have an Optical Center, but Spherical and Cylindrical Lenses do and the location of the OC is affected by the Prism and convergence or divergence of the eyes.

One really off-the-wall theory is that because a Myopic eye is elongated, when it is NOT looking straight ahead. the bony eye socket may press inward slightly on the back of the eyeball and reduce the distance from the Retina to the Crystalline Lens. Even 0.3 mm would REDUCE the required Sphere myopia correction by about 1.00 diopter.

As Yul Brynner said in The King and I, "is a puzzlement".


astigmaphile 12 Aug 2016, 16:26

Cactus Jack,

Now you have me curious to know how prism could make glasses seem to have more minus than is really in them.

Cactus Jack 12 Aug 2016, 09:10


It really was not rough. Before I got glasses, I had no way of comparing what I saw and what I should see. After I got glasses, I knew when I needed a prescription change and what to do about it.

Today, most of my vision problems are age related, with one exception, the development of Adult Onset Strabismus. I have Type 2 diabetes that I have managed, with good coaching, since it was discovered by accident when I was about 30. So far, no Retinal damage. Over the years, I have developed most of the other health problems associated with Diabetes. Fortunately, they were discovered very early because of the insistence by my Endocrinologist that I get tested for them. At 78 I can do almost everything I want to and a few things I don't particularly want to, but have to be done. The snag is that I am a walking Pharmacy, but it works. As the old DuPont advertisements used to say, "Better things for better living, through Chemistry".

My Adult Onset Stratums (Esophoria) is a nuisance because my eyes try to turn inward, very significantly, when I am tired. I need Prism in my glasses to keep images fused and even moderate Prism can cause optical distortion, in addition to doing its primary job. Another thing that exacerbates the problems with prism in glasses is that making glasses with prism is almost a lost art. Muscle surgery can fix many strabismus problems, but not all. Today, there is so little demand for prism correction in glasses that only a few specialty labs know how to make high prism glasses. Also, very few dispensing Opticians know how to order and fit glasses, with a lot of prism, for minimal distortion and best possible Visual Acuity.

From a purely vision point of view, my brain has leaned how to use both eyes simultaneously, under nearly all conditions. It seems like once my brain learns how to deal with different visual input conditions, it stores the "algorithm" and is able to call it up very quickly. However, there are limitations to the ability to fuse two widely separated images and double vision results. Base Out Prism in my glasses can move the two images into a range that allows my Eye Position Control System to command the eye muscles to do what is necessary to fuse the images, but optical distortion may may be more than the the brain can process and reduced Visual Acuity occurs.

One unexplained phenomenon that occurs, even with moderate prism correction, is that the glasses seem to have too much MINUS that can be corrected with supplemental low PLUS using contact lenses or clip-on lenses. The glasses will check perfect and exactly what was prescribed, but not have the VA I saw during the exam. I am trying to figure out why. I have a Theory, but right now, I have no way to prove or disprove it. The few ECPs I have talked to can't explain what I experience and describe.


Soundmanpt 12 Aug 2016, 07:43


So unless they were advised to wear their glasses for more than just reading and seeing close up which could be due to their possibly having astigmatisms which effects eyesight for all distances. Otherwise they may have just decided that with as much close work they do constantly putting on glasses and taking glasses off was too much of a hassle, so they just leave them on most all the time now. If you were to get glasses that might be a decision you might need to make as well since your job requires a lot of reading and close work. At first i'm sure you would probably try to only wear your glasses as little possible But i'm sure you have noticed with your siblings that once they got their glasses they soon weren't able to read anything with small print without their glasses anymore. Please notice that I did say "If you need glasses" i'm sure you're hoping you are good for at least another 2 years.

H 12 Aug 2016, 07:14


My older brother and youneger sister wear their glasses basically all the time. The rest wear them as needed.

Soundmanpt 11 Aug 2016, 13:44


Thanks for pointing out that Labor day hasn't quite got here yet so your correct that you're not past due with getting your eyes examined since you don't wear glasses and 2 years is the recommended time frame. Good to see that not only you but your husband and kid as well. So what are the wearing habits of your siblings? I mean do any of them wear their glasses full time or do they just put them on when they want to read something? I asked because you said your twin and brother showed up wearing glasses but were they just wanting to show everyone that too now wear glasses? All of them have jobs where seeing things close up is essential so it could be quite a pain doing much of the on and off thing. Your twins glasses should be weak enough that she might choose to just wear her glasses all the time if her distance isn't effected too much wearing them. Good luck Sept 2nd i'm sure you would prefer not having to wear glasses just yet.

H 11 Aug 2016, 12:48


My twin was prescribed glasses. She said she had been having trouble reading, so she booked herself an appointment and ended up with glasses. As for it still has not been two years. The kids, my husband, and I have appointments for September 2nd.

Soundmanpt 11 Aug 2016, 10:41


Now that the last 2 of your siblings has started wearing glasses and one is your identical twin sister it would seem that you can't be too far behind. With your twin getting her first glasses i'm surprised she didn't ask you when you're getting glasses? Being identical twins you almost certainly should have the same genes for your eyes as her. Did you ask your sister if she went for an eye exam and was prescribed her glasses or if she maybe just bought a pair of over the counter readers to relax her eyes a bit. I wonder if she went for an eye exam because she was having problems with reading or if she had no problem and was only getting her annual eye exam and was surprised that she needed glasses? You all seem to have jobs where your eyes are likely at the very least being strained quite a bit. Next time you're around your twin sister you should ask to try her glasses and test your eyes by reading from a book or newspaper to see if they are relaxing to your eyes. You may find them to be more comfortable than you think. You have every right to be curious how or why you so far haven't showed any indication of needing glasses when all 6 of your siblings are now wearing glasses. Since it has been over 2 years since you last had your eyes examined you're actually due now for an eye exam. You wouldn't be the first person to go for an eye exam thinking their vision was perfect and come away being told they need glasses. In a way don't you feel left out anyway?

H 10 Aug 2016, 15:02

Cactus Jack,

Sounds rough. How is everything (vision-wise) for you now? Do you still struggle with getting your eyes to work together.

Cactus jack 10 Aug 2016, 05:49


When I was in University, around 20 (1957).

I had natural mono vision, apparently for years, before it was discovered in my early teens. My first prescription, at 14, was OD Plano, OS -1.50. I was reading with my left eye and using my right eye for distance. I had very poor depth perception, but didn't know it.

That explained why I could not hit a baseball. By the time I figured out where the ball was, it was in the catcher's mitt. I got along fine with academics, math, and the sciences, but no school (or after school) baseball team wanted me for my ability to "walk" or "strike out". So I found other interests, the sciences and electronics.

Glasses forced my eyes to work together and focus together, but they did not particularly like it. The massive visual workload in Engineering caused bad headaches. I had to make a choice between buying aspirin by the case, flunking, or getting bifocals. I got +1.00 bifocals and that solved the problem.


H 09 Aug 2016, 23:47

Cactus Jack,

When did you start to need help reading?

Cactus Jack 09 Aug 2016, 09:21


Very few people are immune to Presbyopia. Just consider yourself very fortunate that you have escaped, so far.

Presbyopia actually starts in childhood, but doesn't become a nuisance until somewhere in the 40s. The BIG exception to that is if a person has uncorrected Hyperopia.

Hyperopia is the ONLY refractive error that a person can correct internally, using some of their Accommodation Amplitude (AA) (a measure of the range of their "auto-focus" system). People with moderate Hyperopia often do this without even being aware that they are doing so. A common symptom of low to moderate Hyperopia is exceptionally good distance vision. It is like a slightly over corrected Myope.

Because they are using some of their AA to compensate for their Hyperopia, Presbyopia often becomes a nuisance much earlier than the 40s, particularly if they need to focus very close. That is why many teens discover that they need close focusing help (bifocals or progressives) to read the tiny text on their smartphones. If they are lucky, they may be able to recover some of their AA by wearing PLUS glasses to correct their Hyperopia, which makes more of their accommodation available for close focusing.

May I suggest a few common events to look for in your study of Presbyopic behavior.

If they can wear non-prescription readers, the purchase of many pairs of reading glasses to scatter throughout their environment. (BTW, very low cost readers at "dollar" stores are not bad.); Use of a neck cord for their glasses to keep the readers very handy and difficult to misplace; The acquisition of stronger readers as their Ciliary Muscles become de-conditioned - until the get to around +2.50 to +3.50; Discovery of bifocals or progressives as being the face is the most convenient place for their reading glasses. Some even have no prescription in the distance segment; The ultimate utility of trifocals as being useful for distance, computer displays, and reading.

Enjoy while you can.


H 08 Aug 2016, 21:11

Wow, it sure seems everyone around me is needing reading help now. Just today my co-worker showed up with some readers, and my cousin posted a picture of himself at wearing glasses to read a menue. I just thought it was a weird thing I noticed, and for some reason felt like sharing. After all this, I cannot help but think I am next.

H 07 Aug 2016, 22:36

Cactus Jack,

You won't. I understand curiosity. It is what led me to my profession. I don'y ant to stand in your way.

Cactus Jack 07 Aug 2016, 22:27


Thank you for the offer. I will not abuse your kindness.


H 07 Aug 2016, 21:32

Cactus Jack,

Well, who am I to stand between you and your curiosity. If you want to know something just ask.

Cactus Jack 07 Aug 2016, 19:00


In your first post, you mentioned "my twin and younger brother showed with readers". Somehow, I construed that to mean three brothers. Sibling rivalries between adult bothers, regarding vision, can be intense. It can lead to very funny situations. It is a masculine thing. It is amazing, the lengths brothers will go to, to try to hide the need for vision correction. It is often much more powerful than female vanity.

I think I mentioned it earlier, but try to read "Macrae's Story" on the Vision and Spex site. Here is a link:

I think you will find it entertaining.

A little about me. I am 78. My background is Electronic Engineering and Computers. I am blessed or cursed with a very strong "curiosity bump" which is probably what led me into Engineering. From a very early age, I wanted to KNOW how all kinds of things work. I became interested in Vision and its correction because I was not pleased with the explanations I got from Eye Care Professionals (ECPs) when they could not explain why certain glasses prescriptions decreased my Visual Acuity rather than increased it. That made my "curiosity bump" itch. Because of the work I did, I really needed to see well at all distances.

I started doing detailed research on vision and optics and I guess I have become something of an Amateur, in the original French sense. If I had it all to do over again, I probably would have tried to study and do research in Genetics and Ophthalmology.

There were several things that aroused my curiosity about your family. Seven highly educated siblings with not one but two sets of twins, mostly in the medical field, who are likely familiar with role genetics plays in individual characteristics. The reason I asked about your family's visual history, is that there significant empirical evidence that genetics plays a very large role in visual development. For example: Why do some races have a propensity to be Myopic and others Hyperopic. Why does extreme myopia run in families. What hormones regulate Eyeball Growth?

There almost has to be a specific hormone involved, else why does becoming pregnant often cause an increase in True Myopia in a woman whose Myopia had stopped increasing?

In some ways, it may be like the difficult study that finally proved that tumors had the ability to force development of a blood supply, which may lead to a way to inhibit tumor growth. The story of how that hormone (?) was found and was proved to exist is fascinating. Also interesting, is that there may be another hormone (?) that can prevent other tumors, offspring from the original tumor, from growing - until the original tumor is removed. Then they have a field day.

Many years ago, I read an article about some research, done at the Johns Hopkins Ophthalmology Department, on the causes of Nanothalmia (the term they used). where the eyeball fails to grow as the child grows. (There is a condition known as Microthalmia, but I don't recall that term being used.) The result is extreme, but at least partially correctable, Hyperopia. There was some speculation that there was a specific Eyeball Growth Hormone, produced by the Retina, that was not being produced properly. I don't know if any further research was done because I have not seen any more information about it. I did a quick Goole search on Nanothalmia that yielded no useful results. I don't think the article was my imagination.

Many years ago, some researchers did some research on baby chicks. They fitted them with minus glasses when they were just days after hatching. The chicks grew up to be very myopic and required glasses to be able to see distance. Do chick eyeballs develop in ways similar to human eyeballs?

I don't know if there would be anything to gain from studying your family's genes, such a study is far beyond my ability, but it would be interesting to learn if many years of close work affected your other siblings vision. If it did not, that tends to beg the question, Why not?

BTW, if you would like to contact me privately, please use


H 07 Aug 2016, 14:29

Cactus Jack

Thank you! Yes, we are seven siblings (two sets of twins). By the way I never mentioned my gender, but I am a female, so my identical twin is also a female. I do not know what made you think we are males, but I felt I should correct the misconception

I guess I should be flattered that you think it would be interesting to study (on) my family. We are nothing special. Out of curiosity, what is it about my family that sparked an interest?

The bit about the eyeball growth hormone is very interesting. Where did you hear or read that from?

Cactus Jack 06 Aug 2016, 21:30


Wow! Quite an accomplished family. 7 siblings, if I count correctly, all highly qualified professionals with advanced degrees.

It would be very interesting to explore the visual history of your grandparents, parents, and siblings and perhaps even do some genetic studies. I don't know about your other siblings, but you and your twin brother inherited some exceptionally good genes to have been able to survive many years of intense study without becoming at least slightly myopic. Many professions are very hard on ones eyesight.

Some years ago there was some research done at Johns Hopkins on Nanothalmia where the eyeball does not develop and grow. There was a hint of an Eyeball Growth Hormone thought to be produced by the Retina, but it was not isolated or identified.

It is possible that the brothers you previously mentioned decided to get some reading glasses simply because they made extended close work, more comfortable. Unfortunately, there is a potential price to pay for that comfort, weakened Ciliary Muscles and early need for close focusing help. However, there is a limit to how much help you will ultimately need. It is simply related to focus distance by Sir Isaac Newton's most fundamental optics formula.


H 06 Aug 2016, 19:29

Cactus Jack

My older brother is a neurosurgeon, older sister is an entrepreneur, my twin is an internal medicine doctor, my younger sister is a mechanical engineer, my youngest sister is a biomedical engineer/ pediatrician, and younger brother is an architect and owns a real estate company.

Cactus Jack 06 Aug 2016, 18:24


You might consider a search on Amplitude of Accommodation.


Cactus Jack 06 Aug 2016, 18:23


That is excellent amplitude of accommodation for a 42 year old. However, that will change with time. There are several equations for calculating amplitude of Accommodation based on age.

May I ask your siblings occupation?

As a person gets older, it is almost universal that the Crystalline Lenses will become stiffer and harder for the Ciliary Muscles to squeeze to increase their optical power. That can take extra effort by the Ciliary Muscles. If the Ciliary Muscles are able to increase the Crystalline Lenses PLUS power to focus close, the stiffness makes them slow to relax. While they are relaxing, a person whose eyes require no correction for distance (Emmetropia) experience the symptoms of Myopia.

You might ask your siblings what prompted them to start using reading glasses so you will know what to expect.

As an Endocrinologist, I am sure you have experience with denial of serious medical conditions. While Presbyopia is not nearly as serious as Endocrinological conditions. It happens to almost everyone by the time they get to 45 or 50, with very few exceptions. Enjoy your Emmetropia as long and you can, but you can be pretty well assured that it will not last forever.


Maurice 06 Aug 2016, 10:01

H, let us know when you get your glasses.

H 04 Aug 2016, 23:37

Cactus Jack

I am an Endocrinologist, and I have an identical twin. For your test, I was able to bring the paper all the way to my nose.

Cactus Jack 04 Aug 2016, 17:43


Unless you are one in a million (or more), it is very likely that you will ultimately need close focusing help. Vision training will not slow the progression of Presbyopia, but it might help keep your Ciliary Muscles in condition.

To some extent, your visual environment can affect how rapidly Presbyopia develops. May I ask your occupation? Also, is your twin Identical or fraternal.

About every 10 to 15 years, the Bates Method or other "methods" will re-appear. The most recent one I remember was the "See Clearly Method" which was advertised extensively, but was ultimately found to be ineffective except in one regard. It significantly improved the wealth of the sponsors.

As a quick test, starting at about arms length, move a book or news paper slowly toward your eyes, until the text just begins to get fuzzy. Measure the distance where that occurs and let me know.


H 04 Aug 2016, 14:01


The last time was almost two years ago. I last had them checked labor day weekend in 2014. I remember tha because I got them checked with the kids (it was their first time).

Maurice 04 Aug 2016, 12:45

H, when was the last time you had your eyes checked? Age 42----it might be a good idea.

H 04 Aug 2016, 11:55

Cactus Jack

I never said anything to any of my siblings. I kept it to myself. So I will not be eating crow. I mention my siblings here to make a point that my blood relatives (even twin) are facing these problems, so is there any hope for me to not have these problems?

Cactus Jack 04 Aug 2016, 08:45


Be really careful about bragging to your siblings about your not needing reading help, unless you really like to "eat crow". You might enjoy reading "Macrae's Story on the Vision and Spex, Fantasy and True Stories thread. It is a true, humorous, "saga" about Macrae's adventures with finally getting glasses and his attempts to hide his vision problems from his siblings. I can assure yo that your time will come and no matter how you cook it, crow is still crow. I have no personal knowledge about eating actual crow, but I understand it it not very tasty. Eating one's words is not much fun either, unless you can laugh about the need to do so.

There are two factors involved in needing close focusing help; Presbyopia and Ciliary Muscle strength (conditioning). There os nothing you can do about Presbyopia, which is the slow, gradual stiffening of the protein that makes up the Crystalline Lens. The gradual stiffening actually starts in childhood, but generally done not become a problem until the late 30s or early 40s, but that is not a hard and fast rule. When the Crystalline Lenses get too stiff for the Ciliary Muscles to be able to nearly instantly change power, there are two visual effect, difficulty in focusing close (arms get too short) and once focused close slow relaxation for distance vision (temporary, blurry distance vision)

The Ciliary Muscles are the tiny muscles that squeeze the Crystalline Lenses to increase their PLUS power to focus close. For their size, they are the strongest muscles in the body, but like all muscles, if you don't use them, they become weak. When you finally get to the point where you need reading help, your Ciliary Muscles will have to work less and will become weaker fairly quickly. It is somewhat like a slow motion cascade of needing more and more external PLUS help. However, fortunately there is an endpoint to this cascade and a limit to how much PLUS focusing help you will need. It strictly depends on how close you need/like to focus. Typical reading distances require +2.50 to +3.00 as dictated by the laws of optical physics.

BTW, don't think for an instant that other people won't notice that you are having trouble focusing close. That just doesn't work, particularly with your family.


H 03 Aug 2016, 21:16

Hi, I just had my 42nd birthday last week, and my twin and younger brother showed with readers. This leaves me as the only sibling without glasses. I am just wondering if there is anything I can do to keep my vision (especially my near vision, all my siblings need reading help now) the way it is, or at least postpone the deterioration?

Cactus jack 19 Jul 2016, 12:35


NJ is right. I am also not an Eye Care Professional (ECP) and don't pretend to be. Hopefully, you are under the are of an ECP that specialized is High and Progressive Myopia. Usually, there is a genetic factor in high myopia, which is why I asked about that. Sometimes it skips generations.

There is a theory that there is a specific Eyeball Growth Hormone that can cause eyeball growth. It has never been isolated and identified.

You probably have not yet studied this in school, but there are three possible causes of myopia, which is an optical mismatch between the total PLUS power of your eye's lens system and the length of your eyeball.

True or Axial Myopia has two causes:

1. The most common is excessive eyeball growth (length)

2. Rarely, it is caused by too much PLUS in your eye's lens system

Pseudo or False Myopia is caused by the Ciliary Muscles and Crystalline Lenses, which is extremely rare in very young people.

If your myopia is caused by excessive eyeball growth, retinal detachment is a risk. If it is caused by too much PLUS in your eye's lens system retinal detachment risk is much lower..

Many ophthalmologists, particularly those who do Cataract Surgery, have an ultra sound instrument which can make painless dimensional measurements of your eyes.

If you would like to learn more about how your eyes work, here is a link. It is an advanced article, but give it a try,


NJ 19 Jul 2016, 10:39

Taylor, pleased be advised that no one here is an eye care professional. If you have questions, you should really ask you eye doc.

There have been some studies that suggest bifocals can reduce the progression of myopia, but only modestly. The idea is that providing a reading segment in the lower part of your lenses will reduce the amount by which you need to force your eyes to focus on near objects, perhaps limiting the increase in myopia. To my knowledge, there is no way to actually reduce myopia other than various kinds of refractive surgeries. However, if the myopia is cased by an increase in eyeball length, this won't help lower the risk of retinal detachment.

Again, you should ask your eye doc about these issues.

Best wishes!

Taylor 19 Jul 2016, 09:51

My current prescription is -13.25, -13.50 eith -2.75 and -2.50 astigmatism. I got glasses when I was 3 years old, I never wore them until 7, and started wearing them all the time by 8. If I remember correctly, I got astigmatism when I was 6. Every year (or 6 months) since I got glasses my prescription has increased. Both my parents are farsighted. One of my sisters is nearsighted. I think I have one maybe two nearsighted cousins other than them (and me) my family memebers have perfect vision.I am a girl and I play soccer, and softball.

Cactus Jack 19 Jul 2016, 09:15


Can you provide your complete current prescription and a bit of your visual history. That would help understand your situation.

A few questions.

Myopia typically has a strong genetic component.

1. Are any of your close relatives, also myopic? )parents and grandparents in particular)

2, May I ask your gender and if you play contact sports?

3. May I also ask where you live (country)?

Retinal Detachment is a risk with very high myopia, but there can be other factors. Many people with high myopia never have any problems with retinal detachment and retinal detachment can occur in a person without any myopia. Often retinal detachment, occurs as the result of a blow to the head, if the attachment is weak.

It is very scary if it occurs, but these days the "surgery" is done with a Laser to re-attach the retina to the back of your eyeball.


Taylor 19 Jul 2016, 06:20

Oh, I am 14 years old; and only asked because I was hoping to reverse at least some of my myopia. Yes, I will admit it is partly because my lenses are so thick and my eyes look so weird behind the thick lenses, but for the most part I am really worried about my eye health and sight. I have read from multiple sources that higher levels of myopia is bad for the eye, like it can cause retinal detachment, which requires surgery to fix. I do not want that to happen. I thought if I could reverse some of the myopia, maybe I could save myself from eye problems.

Cactus Jack 18 Jul 2016, 22:33


It depends on what type of Myopia you have. You cannot reverse Axial or True Myopia because it is caused by an optical mismatch between the total PLUS refractive power of your eye's lens system and the length of your eyeball. For it to work, you eyeball would have to un-grow.

You might be able to reverse some small bit of Pseudo or False Myopia by wearing PLUS glasses, but it depends on several factors, your age, the amount of Pseudo Myopia you have, and your visual environment. Just to mention a few. Wearing un-needed PLUS glasses can cause problems of their own such as even more blurry distance vision, early onset of Presbyopia.

Every few years there are books and various "methods" promoted to "improve" vision. The Bates Method and the See Clearly Method come immediately to mind. In general they don't work. The only thing they improve is the bank account of the promoter snd decrease the size of yours.

May I ask your age and why you asked?


 18 Jul 2016, 17:38

Is it true that wearing pkaus glasses can reverse myopia?

Cactus jack 06 Dec 2013, 07:08


At 24, I think you probably have a long way to go, before you need reading help, but genetics seems to play a big role in when the crystalline lenses become too stiff for the ciliary muscles to be able to control their PLUS power. However, the ciliary muscles are another story. Their strength and conditioning depend on how much exercise they get. Normally, that is not a problem, because they normally get more exercise that any other muscles in the body just doing their job.

Anything that reduces the amount of exercise they get, will affect their conditioning, but the most obvious thing is wearing a reduced MINUS (or increased PLUS) prescription for reading. Full correction of higher MINUS prescriptions may help keep the eye's focusing system in good condition, but even that may ultimately fail. Curiously, there is some evidence that wearing MINUS over correction may help train the ciliary muscles just as weight lifting trains and builds the strength of the arm and leg muscles.

However, wearing MINUS overcorrection may not be a good idea if our theories about the things that stimulate eyeball growth and the genetic propensity for myopia are correct. The wider Depth of Field of MINUS glasses may help a little with focusing close while the minimization of image size on the retina makes reading small text more difficult. It might be possible to reduce the minimization effects of MiNUS lenses by reducing the vertex distance of the corrective lenses to near zero with contact lenses or perhaps even less than zero with internal "contact lenses". Hopefully, by the time you are approaching the age where close focusing help is needed, there will be other solutions for presbyopia.

Wouldn't it be great if you could take an inexpensive pill that would keep the crystalline lenses from aging or perhaps a vaccine given in childhood that would prevent it for a lifetime.


Astra 06 Dec 2013, 01:11

Is it possible to train the ciliary muscles to delay presbyopia onset ?

My age 24.

laulau_fre 05 Dec 2013, 00:40

cactus jack

Thank you very much I understand.

Everyone always had with my correction -7 -8.

So my only alternative will be to wear contact lenses. GOC.

Or to have surgery to be more myopic if with a lot of luck.

I find a doctor who will agree to make me more myopic.

laulau_fre 05 Dec 2013, 00:39

Cactus jack

Merci beaucoup j'ai bien compris.

Tout le monde ma toujours connu avec une correction de -7 -8.

Donc ma seule alternative sera soit de porter des lentilles de contact. GOC.

Ou de me faire opérer pour être plus myope si avec énormément de chance.

Je trouverai un médecin qui accepterai de me rendre plus myope.

Cactus Jack 05 Dec 2013, 00:18


Please let me know if the translation is OK.

Cactus Jack 05 Dec 2013, 00:16


It is not correct that presbyopia will not affect you because you are nearsighted.

Think of your actual -3.50 myopia as having built in +3.50 reading glasses.

Presbyopia is caused by the crystalline lens becoming so stiff that the ciliary muscles can no longer increase its plus power and it is beginning to happen.

When you were a child, your crystalline lenses had the consistency of gelatine dessert and you likely had about 18 diopters of accommodation range. As you got older, your accommodation range gradually decreased and it is now about 5.50 diopters. When you wear the -7 glasses, you are using +3.50 diopters of your accommodation to focus distant images which leaves only about +2.00 diopters for focusing close. Typical reading distance is 40 cm which requires +2.50 diopters to focus, but your crystalline lenses and ciliary muscles can no longer supply +2.50, only +2.00 and the small print is blurry.

In a few years, presbyopia wil make it impossible for your ciliary muscles and crystalline lenses to compensate for the -7.00 glasses and distant things will be very blurry as if you were wearing -11 or -12 glasses.

English to French translation using Google Translator

Il n'est pas exact que la presbytie ne sera pas pour vous, car vous êtes myope .

Pensez à votre myopie de -3,50 réelle ayant construit dans les 3,50 lunettes de lecture .

La presbytie est causée par le cristallin devient si raide que les muscles ciliaires ne peuvent plus augmenter sa puissance de plus et il commence à se produire.

Lorsque vous étiez enfant , vos lentilles cristallines eu la consistance de gélatine dessert et vous avez probablement eu environ 18 dioptries de gamme d'hébergement. Comme vous avez plus , votre gamme de logements a diminué graduellement et il est maintenant d'environ 5,50 dioptries . Quand vous portez les lunettes -7 , vous utilisez 3,50 dioptries de votre hébergement se concentrer images lointaines qui laisse seulement environ 2,00 dioptries pour la focalisation étroite . Distance de lecture typique est de 40 cm, ce qui nécessite 2,50 dioptries à se concentrer , mais vos lentilles cristallines et des muscles ciliaires ne peut plus fournir 2,50 , 2,00 et que la petite impression est floue .

En quelques années , la presbytie wil font qu'il est impossible pour vos muscles ciliaires et le cristallin pour compenser les verres et -7,00 choses lointaines sera très floue comme si vous portiez -11 ou -12 lunettes aujourd'hui

laulau_fre 04 Dec 2013, 23:17

Cactus jack

Mon anglais est pas très bon. J'utilise un logiciel de traduction. c'est pas évident de ce comprendre.

Je porte une surcorrection depuis mes 24 an. A 24 an je porter du -8 sans compter mon asitgmatisme.

J'ai réduis un peu la surcorrection du à mes difficulté à lire des très petit caractères de près.

J'ai effectivement -3.50 de myopie axile, test sous atropine.

Si je comprend bien à 45 ans comme je suis myope je ne serai pas touché par la presbytie.

Si j'enlève mes lunettes pour lire.

Mais ce que je veux savoir c'est si ma vision de loin sera flou en continuant à porter -7 ?

Je connais goc et je le pratique de temps en temps avec succès, mais je supporte pas je préfére porter mes lunettes -7 tout les jours sans lentilles de contact.

Cactus Jack 04 Dec 2013, 18:20


I am not sure you understand how the optical system of the eye, works.

If you actually have -3.50 and -3.25 Axial or True Myopia, it is highly unlikely that you will ever be farsighted (hyperopia). When you wear -6.75 and -7.00 glasses you are creating about -3.50 of Pseudo or False Myopia by using your ciliary muscles and crystalline lenses to add enough extra plus to compensate. This action is usually called Accommodation.

As you get older, Presbyopia will reduce your ability to add the extra plus to be able to wear the -6.75 and -7.00 glasses for distance and also reduce your ability to add additional plus to be able to focus close. You are already experiencing some difficulty in focusing to read and the amount of plus you ultimately need to be able focus close will increase as Presbyopia makes it more difficult to focus close.

It is likely that by the time you are 45, you will not be able to wear the -6.75 / -7.00 glasses for distance and will need an ADD of around +2.00 to +2.50. However, you will always be able to do GOC. We have several members who are wearing GOC glasses in the -15 to -20 range in their 60s.


laulau_fre 04 Dec 2013, 15:03

Cactus Jack

Thank you cactus jack

But I'd like to know when I have 45 years and I am farsighted, is that I can always wear a correction -7 for my distance vision?

Wearing progressive lenses?

You think 1.25 would no longer sufficient?

Cactus Jack 04 Dec 2013, 12:25


Presbyopia is catching up with you so progressives or bifocals will help. Presbyopia is caused by your crystalline lenses gradually becoming stiff with age which reduces you accommodation range. It appears that you are wearing approximately -3.50 diopters of over correction. That uses up about +3.50 of your available accommodation. The amount of additional accommodation you need to focus to read is a function of how closely you like to read. For example to read at 40 cm requires +2.50 of accommodation in addition to the +3.50 you need to compensate for your over correction and you are running out.

I would suggest starting with an Add of +1.50, but expect that to increase faster than you would like.


laulau_fre 04 Dec 2013, 10:00

Cactus Jack

I'm nearsighted with a correction of -3.50 (-1 to 0 °) and -3.25 (-1 to 0 °).

I am 35 year, and I wear glasses all the time -6.75 (1-90 °) and -7 (1-90 °).

I have difficulty reading closely especially when it's not very bright small print, my distance vision do not ask me worry I see very well.

Do you think if I wear progressive lenses that help me be able to see up close?

thank you

bwian 03 Dec 2013, 05:40

This is a very interesting story about children getting glasses

Crystal Veil 25 May 2010, 10:29

To Puffin and Cactus Jack,

today's photo shoot with the +5 model went along fine. She did not get cross eyed and she had no problems posing in my glasses otherwise. Her portraits will appear within a week on my weblog. She kindly offered to be back sometime in June for another photo shoot.

Thanks again to both of you for the good advice!

Crystal Veil 23 May 2010, 21:32

To Puffin,

thank you for this reassuring information. I have some four dozen glasses available for the model. The Rx of the glasses is between +5 and +8. So what she will see through the glasses is essentially what a mild myope would see without her glasses on. I experimented with this in some of my previous photo shoots, with middle aged myopic models. Bringing in some glasses with a milder prescription than their own Rx gives the eyes some relaxation. The distance between model and camera is only about one meter so the model needs to accomodate her eyes about one diopter which can be tiring for models with presbyopia. Hence the milder presription. I work fast and each pair of glasses is no longer than one minute on the model's nose. Every five or ten minutes I tell the model to take a short break so that she can put her own glasses on for more relaxation. None of my models ever complained about dizzyness of headaches during or after her photo shoot. But tomorrow's model may have more of a risk and that's why I asked for advice here. I intend to do the same routine tomorrow and will inform you and Cactus Jack on this thread about the outcome after the photo shoot. Thanks again to both of you. Much appreciated!

Puffin 23 May 2010, 17:06

Crystal Veil:

I think it quite unlikely you'll have a problem (the situation I mentioned is very rare). I look forward to seeing the results. I'm assuming that myopic glasses won't be appropriate in this shoot.

4eyes 23 May 2010, 15:03

Hi... Jack, I like to hear you in every thread.

Here's Anderson from São Paulo.

Hello Emma & Wei.

It is funny to see this thread still up, I thought it was over…

Yes, there are vision training for crossing eyes. To my daddy were indicated many Clinics here in São Paulo, where you can find people who do that job. I’ve done that for over 6 months. My eyes cross badly due to few reasons as I am aphakic, that means no internal lenses and I have few eyes paralyzed muscles. That is I mean, according to MD. So my “dad” wondered maybe “Therapy Vision training” would work out? I tell you I’d hated it very much and because results were almost none I’d drop it out. I can’t even stand an eye occluding… hehehe. My daddy says my eyes crosses even more if I am without glasses and he hates it, so Crystal, it is very likely that that happens. Maybe, hum… if she gets proper eyeglasses or contacts then the problem will be solved, I think. But therapy vision works in many many cases, so I think you Crystal could if you would, talk to her about it.

Hope things works out fine on the pictures session.

Please, I’m sorry about my bad English.

Anderson’s here.

Crystal Veil 23 May 2010, 12:16

To Puffin and Cactus Jack,

thanks to both of you for your answers.

I'll keep my fingers crossed (for the model) that the photo shoot will succeed.

Cactus Jack 23 May 2010, 08:04

Crystal Veil,

To amplify Puffin's excellent answer: The tendency for the eyes to cross in SOME under corrected hyperopes is caused by the focusing effort interacting in the brain with the eye muscle convergence mechanism. Myopes typically do not have THAT problem unless they are significantly over corrected which is optically and physiologically the same as having hyperopia. Myopes can have problems with crossed eyes or wall-eyes (esotropia or exotropia), but it generally does not have the same cause as the hyperope's problem above and it cannot be corrected by changing the sphere Rx.


Puffin 23 May 2010, 03:58

Crystal Veil,

In general terms, more muscular effort in the eyes is interpreted by the nervous system as a need to turn the eyes a little more inward. For some people there is wider window of cause before the effect of eyes turning in starts. It seems this lady may be one of those who have more sensitivity to eye muscle effort that others, and obviously having slightly inadequate corrective lenses puts them on the edge of this response. Whether this applies to the other side of the window of cause/effect I cannot tell you. Probably nobody has tried to find out what effect an extra +3 or +5 of correction will have on her convergence (it is not unknown for myopes to have an opposite problem, getting slightly wall-eyed because they don't have enough minus.)

I'm assuming that whatever problems she has, they go away fairly quickly with the right prescription? If so perhaps you could lend her a couple of pairs of slightly stronger glasses to see what happens?

Crystal Veil 23 May 2010, 00:30

To Cactus Jack.

I need some advice on a similar "cross eyed" problem as discussed here. The day after tomorrow I will do a photo shoot with a model. Her own prescription is as follows:

L: sph +5.00; cyl -1.00; axis 10

R: sph +5.00; cyl -0.75; axis 165

She is in her early or mid thirties and hyperopia is in her entire family.

She explained to me that she gets cross eyed when she is wearing glasses with a prescription that is no longer accurate. Other family members have the same problem. Nevertheless, she is interested in doing the photo shoot.

I understood that she had an increase recently and I assume that her problem arises when glasses are not strong enough. Am I on the safe side when she poses in glasses slightly stronger than her own prescription?

I would appeciate if you can throw some light on the matter.

Cactus Jack 02 May 2010, 11:53


It depends on the problem and the individual. In Val's situation, he did the exercises every day for several weeks and now only needs to do the exercises periodically.

Your friend needs to consult with some one who specializes in visual training. Putting off doing something about the problem only makes it harder to fix in the future. My I ask your friend's age?


Emma 02 May 2010, 10:29

I don't think my friend has any problem with her vision. Her eyes just tend to cross and she's more concerned with how that looks than anything. She's going to look into vision training anyway. Do you have to keep up the vision training every day?

Val 28 Apr 2010, 22:23

Emma, Cactus Jack is correct, vision training is better done by professionals. There are different sets of eye exercises for different eye problems. In my case, some 16 years ago, a eye technician taught me to do at home some set of exercises, because my eye were turning very little inward. I did it every day for 4-5 weeks and the problem was gone. The cause was uncorrected hyperopia. From time to time I do one of the exercises again, probably 3-4 consecutive days in 6 months, but I wear glasses full time, so the original cause of the problem is gone too.

Cactus Jack 28 Apr 2010, 14:37


Yes there is, but it is not very effective if there is some underlying cause such as hyperopia or muscle control problems.

A typical cause is uncorrected hyperopia and the act of accommodating causes the eyes to converge. If you friend has some uncorrected hyperopia and does not want to wear glasses, she may find that some plus contacts may help the problem.

In the US, some optometrists specialize in vision therapy and they offer training, but she should not try visual training without a complete evaluation.


Emma 28 Apr 2010, 11:54

Yeah, is there any vision training for crossed eyes? My friend eyes tend to cross. She says she doesn't have any problem with her vision and doesn't want glasses so I wonder if there's any vision training that would work?

Wei 27 Apr 2010, 15:09

Is vision training of crossed eyes? My eyes is crossed reading and wear mysodisc

Emma 15 Apr 2010, 11:08

There's some pinhole glasses you get for vision training aren't there? Not that they would work for my high RX but they're supposed to work with low RXs I think.

Wei 12 Apr 2010, 14:25

Is any vision trianing for hi myopia? I very many rx and want acuty improve

Leon 28 Aug 2008, 17:28

Dont worry the rocket launcher will kill the tyrant in one hit... just be patient.

4eyes 10 May 2008, 09:02

Hi... you all,

I've done TV for four months last year, but the darn thing didn't any good for me at all. In fact, it felt like I was worsening at each time I went into VT. I'm some far sighted and I have strabismus and others eyes issue. But I think things are getting worsen for me lately to the point it's affecting my sports activities, mostly soccer I love so much, somehow I found that when I am distracted my eyes go far from my glasses lenses view as if my glasses were not working. I don't know if that makes any sense, but I am still scare going back to TV again.

Now, That's me saying so.

See ya all

Cactus Jack 09 May 2008, 19:21


Post your age, occupation, and where you live on the Induced Myopia thread and I'll give you some suggestions.


Pauline 09 May 2008, 01:21

When i was younger i had exercise to help with my squint, not sure if they done any good, i still have it.

 08 May 2008, 17:42

See the Induced Myopia thread. In short: if you're able to see through stronger minus glasses than needed, you may be able to induce some myopia after wearing them all the time.

Tucker 08 May 2008, 17:33

I've never worn glasses, but I want to. How can I make my vision worse enough to wear glasses?

wil 18 May 2006, 00:03

Has anyone currently found or using any eye improvement device that works?



SK 25 Apr 2006, 12:48

I had a one-time trial use on Eye PM few days ago. One eye down 2 lines and the other 1 line immediately after the trial and my eyes never felt so good for the rest of the day. But I didn't purchase it as it was very expensive, about $650. I need to have some assurance the device really works. Now, the improvement has diminished. Hope FreeDive will feedback. SK

Wil 19 Apr 2006, 04:01

Hi Freedive,

Please share with me your experience with this ipm device, it's really working?



TC 19 Mar 2006, 18:17

Hi freedive57

I'm wondering is this PE device effective for your myopia? Thanks.


freedive57 05 Jan 2006, 02:05

I wanted to share my experience with purchasing a vision trainer. On eBay it's item number 5646696594. Look in the box and a green LED moves toward and away from the eye, exercising accomodation and convergence at the same time (there are prisms or mirrors or something to double the image). I have no connection to the seller of this tool except as a customer.

Their brochure says:

"The Eye P.M. is a visual exercise training device base on binocular fusion theory, auto focal accommodation principle and eye muscle relaxation format. The user's eyes follow the nano light that move fore and back to recover the eye muscle elasticity, improve the focusing ability and the refractive system Thus, counteract eye refractive errors that lead to eye defects."

THe delivery was timely. I've only just started using the unit.

The principle by which it works seems similar to the Vision Freedom training of a few years back (the vendor has disappeared). I got results with that system (reduced myopia) but didn't follow through with it.


presbyopia_23 14 Nov 2005, 22:24

dont think thats the case. I guess it just happens by itself for everyone, some sooner, some later

-- 14 Nov 2005, 16:09

Presbyopia 23:

Do you think you have been overcorrected in the past? Do you think this might have something to do with your current trouble at near?

presbyopia_23 13 Nov 2005, 21:16

I think my vision is really improving! I can see the 20/50 line quite easy and can still make out the 20/40 line but its indistinct at times. This is with only -4.25 diopters of correction! Things from 1 meter are perfectly clear and even from 1.5 meters pratically clear

presbyopia_23 10 Nov 2005, 06:08

best corrected vision. You mentioned yours is 20/20 with contacts, 20/25 with glasses due to minification. Mines in the 20/30 range but in bright light I can make out some of the 20/25 and at night its 20/40 in the worse right eye due to high order abberations and irregular astigmastim.

Emily 08 Nov 2005, 21:00

What does BCVA stand for? I know CVA is corrected and UVA is uncorrected. I never came across BCVA. Thanks.

presbyopia_23 08 Nov 2005, 20:54

VERY good BCVA for -10.5 diopters! The 20/20 line would be about the size of 20/16.5 with your contacts. This means youd easily see 20/20 with contacts and possibily a letter or two on the 20/15!

Do you think I am experiencing possible problems with my retina due to moderate myopia? Thats what two doctors think. I think its my irregular astigmastim to blame for it. I can improve my vision from 20/30 to 20/25 in each eye with the pinhole effect which means its the irregular astigmastim part. I wonder what 20/20 vision looks like, let alone better than that!

arent you worried about your UCVA getting worse and worse? also what about future retina problems?

Emily 08 Nov 2005, 19:58

I can still make out the 20/20 line with glasses or contacts, but I know if my glasses get much stronger, the 20/20 line will go away. I'm prepared to live with that.

presbyopia_23 08 Nov 2005, 19:51

"When my distance vision gets blurry, as it does after 6 months or so,I go for an exam and get new glasses that restore sharp vision."

I used to do that too but everytime I bumped my pescription up to give me a plano outcome, my eyes would just get -.25 or -.5 diopters worse in short time. Then they would remain stable like that for quite a while. I believe this was pseudomyopia which eventurally became real myopia as my eyeball got longer. Ive also noticed things become extra blurry after wearing strong glasses allday. about 6 months back, I measured -5.5 in the worse left eye. Im probably -5 now in that eye and a bit less in the right. I may still have a bit more pseudomyopia that will slowly resolve. This is why natural vision improvement can reduce myopia. I doubt itll make one plano if they have more than a diopter or two of myopia though. However I would be very happy to get down to -4 which is what I was when I was 16 or 17. I want to get intacs to eat out another -2.5 to -3 diopters so ill be around -2 diopters. Since I have mild presbyopia, I dont mind a little myopia since I wont need reading glasses then.

you see 20/25 with glasses in the -10 range. whats your contact pescription and do you see 20/20 in full or part with them?

Emily 08 Nov 2005, 19:42


What I don't understand is this: If being undercorrected is supposed to retard your myopia, then why does my vision keep getting worse even when I don't immediately get new glasses? I usually get an exam when my vision reaches 20/40, which takes 6-8 months usually from my last exam. Why don't my eyes stop when they reach 20/25 or 20/30? They just keep getting worse until I can't avoid getting stronger glasses anymore. Maybe that's where the rapidly progressive myopia part kicks in.

presbyopia_23 08 Nov 2005, 19:31

I understand the things I miss out by having less than BCVA. However this is only for distance. There is just no point wearing strong glasses at home, especially since I use the computer alot, I see better anyway with weaker glasses and my eyes dont tire as much. I feel that I would miss out more if my eyes keep getting worse. There is the issue of spectacle minification(contacts can fix that)(if you can tolerate them, I cant)(contacts have risks) theres also the issue of my retina getting stretched which can led to problems sooner or later and result in loss of BCVA. Theres the issue of being really helpless without glasses. My grandmother is legally blind in one eye due to a retina tear and I dont think she even has much myopia! Id rather go with very slightly blurry vision than end up more and more myopic and permaently lose vision or even go legally blind.

My BCVA is a sharp 20/30 in the left eye and a blurry 20/30 in the right. I blame glasses minification for the loss of half a line and irregular astigmastim for the rest. 20/50 isnt bad, especially when im 20/500 without my -4.25 glasses! Theres not much difference between 20/30 BCVA and 20/50 I get by wearing slightly underpowered glasses. Sometimes the optometrist will say "your fine, you dont need new glasses" when hes like -.5 diopters undercorrected. This ensures his myopia will slow its progression and instead of updating every year, he can do it every other year.

Emily 08 Nov 2005, 17:20


What you're not considering is that you miss out on a lot when you don't see well. I like having good vision, which I can only attain with glasses or contacts. When my distance vision gets blurry, as it does after 6 months or so,I go for an exam and get new glasses that restore sharp vision. If this means that my glasses will acquire an extra few mm of thickness over a few years, it's OK. I have never promoted "induced myopia," but neither have I tried to prevent my myopic progression by sacrificing good vision.

presbyopia_23 08 Nov 2005, 16:55

We need to get more people to post here!

read below for some tips.

they should. Theres a thread where people actually induce more myopia. I read it and just do the opposite of that. Bump my pescription down from -5 to -4.25 for 24/7 wear. around the house I bump it down even further to -3.25. For eating and reading I go bare eye. For reading, you will want an undercorrection of -2.5 to -4 diopters. For computer work youll want -1 to -1.75 undercorrection. Ditto for going around the house. for 24/7 usage, you can take -.5 to -1 undercorrection. Sash your full power glasses in your car to use just for driving. Do you ever squint? I hear its a bad habit that places strain on your eyes. I just move closer or tilt my glasses. So far I have achieved anywhere from -.5 to -1 diopter improvement in my vision. I remember I used to be -5.75 in the left eye 2 years ago. Now I can see nearly as well with -4.75(same glasses, but right lense)id say about half a line worse so -5 makes sense for me. There is even a thread on natural vision improvement on the BBS. I will post there too, check it out guys if you are interested.

If you are a low myope, try to go without glasses as much as you can.

For everyone else, wear weaker glasses than you need. Things will still be clear from near and intermediate but you will greatly reduce accomodation which results in myopia progression. Do the opposite of those trying to induce more myopia

woodframes 07 Oct 2005, 21:29

Good day,

I am a maker of hand carved wooden glasses, each being specific in design and construction to the desires of the customer. I personally pick all my woods to ensure uniqueness and quality. If anyone is interested in a one in a kind pair of eyewear, feel free to contact me as we could discuss further the possibilities of custom wooden frames.

Scott Urban

Wei 10 Sep 2005, 05:03

I read all posts on thread and see I not only person suffer attack for mention of vision training!

Wei 09 Aug 2005, 00:08

Presbyopia, you technqe sound very good. Have you improve vision yet?

presbyopia_23 08 Aug 2005, 17:05

One good theory on vision improvement addresses pseudomyopia which is ciliary muscle spasms. What this means is that you are accomodating at all times where you should not be. I read the diary of one woman who said most myopes have trouble fully relaxing their ciliary muscles and she improved 1.25 diopters by training her vision and relaxing the ciliary muscles so she was doing zero accomodation from a distance. It is questionable if you can reverse the enlongation of your axil eye, eg. enlongation of eyeball but at least you can stop it from getting worse with exercises and even improve some :)

Wei 07 Aug 2005, 02:52

Thank you leelee! I interst in Bates techique. I also interst that myopicness is overcorrect i hope my vision not made worse from this! I have so many problem seeing I fear I not able to wear weaker glasses but I research more.

leelee 06 Aug 2005, 12:48

I think most mainstream vision training relates to problems of convergence and eye teaming and possible problems with accommodation. It provides exercises to train your brain and eye muscles to better coordinate to overcome imbalances or tendencies to drift in or out.

There is also the "Bates" method of vision training which is based on relaxing your visual system - and makes the assumption that most myopic people are over-corrected, so it encourages your to wear weaker glasses. There is probably some validity to this since a hyperope typially can't wear their full correction until their system relaxes either.

Wei 06 Aug 2005, 12:01

I very interested in vision training. As many you know i have very high rx and concern of lose of aciuty as myopic progress. Some you like high rx I think but i find increase problem with vision. I fear vision traing only use with low rx but i wonder if myopic could be redress somehow. I try techniques but seem to affect. I read of use of plus lens but guess this of of little use to me. I hopeful of improvement with myodisc and contact soon. If you have low rx should concren with vision training i think.

presbyopia_23 06 Jul 2005, 13:28

wow no new posts in forever? Please give me some advice, I dont want to be -5 I want to improve to -4 or better yet -3

Judy 10 Dec 2004, 19:14

Although I have no experience with optical4less but I heard a lot of bad thing about that merchant.

Julian 05 Dec 2004, 05:40

Bruce: be reasonable. Francine's post has been there since May. It's just that Customer has chosen a funny place to push optical4less.

Love and kisses, Jules.

Bruce 05 Dec 2004, 03:57

Boring, opinionated Francine I mean.

Bruce 05 Dec 2004, 03:56

omg it's back......

Customer 04 Dec 2004, 11:32

Have you people ever bought anything online but never receive it? If you don't, try They are the one.

Francine 19 May 2004, 13:01

Management of Progressive Myopia:

An interesting article by Dr Paul Harris, OD:

Francine Eisner 14 Feb 2004, 19:56

IMO Eyescene is a very interesting bulletin board. I enjoy coming here to learn and also to post about Vision Training.

This particular thread is about Vision Training, not general subjects. It would therefore be in the best interests of everyone if posters here kept to the subject.

Thanks and regards,


D-W-V 14 Feb 2004, 14:43

Well, that isn't much sphere, but that 1 D of cylinder could make text a little blurry. So, you should try wearing glasses for reading and see if it makes enough difference.

Guido 14 Feb 2004, 11:10


GLCK 14 Feb 2004, 10:11

What is the recommendation for wear with that prescription

Guido 14 Feb 2004, 06:54

-1.00, cyl +1.25 same as +0.25 -1.25 X 130

-0.75 sph, +1.00 cyl and axis 120

+0.25 -1.00 X 30

GLCK 14 Feb 2004, 06:11

What does this prescripton convert to.

Prescript is sph -1.00, cyl +1.25, axis 40 that is for right eye and left eye is -0.75 sph, +1.00 cyl and axis 120

Francine  22 Jan 2004, 14:51


I have just received a review copy of a book called "Visual Fitness, 7 Minutes to Better Eyesight and Beyond," by Dr David Cook, OD, FCOVD. It is a wonderful book for the lay person (which almost all of us are) and it sets up suggestions for

improving vision in ways that I know about and sincerely believe in.

Among other things, Dr Cook gives an overview of the history of VT. He gives exercises that are different from the ones I suggest on FOVT, and they are extremely useful VT-type

exercises. I am suggesting his book because it packed full of useful info, and true to my own beliefs it does not suggest that you can automatically throw away your glasses, or that you can really do VT without a trained VTOD as advisor. Dr Cook merely

states, and backs up his statements, that you all have the capacity to improve your vision.

Dr Cook's book will be available for purchase on February 4, 2004, so I guess you'll be able to get it fom Barnes & Noble or

Here is a general outline of its contents:


1 - What is Visual Fitness and How May it Be Affecting Your Life?

2 - Your First Step: The Visual Fitness Self-Assessment

3 - Visual Fitness Skill I: Clear - Sight

How"Little" Can You See?

4 - Visual Fitness Skill II: Big - Sight

How "Big" Can You See?

5 - Visual Fitness Skill III: Deep - Sight

How Much Depth Can You See?

6 - Visual Fitness Skill IV: Strong - Sight

How Long Can You See?

7 - Visual Fitness Skill V: Quick -Sight

How Fast Can You See?

8 - Visual Fitness Skill VI: Smart -Sight

Seeing With the Mind's Eye

9 - Visual Fitness Skill VII: Sports - Sight

Keeping Your Seeing on the Ball

10 - Your Visual Fitness Workouts: Organizing for Success

11 - Visual Fitness Trainers: Who are they? Where did they come

from? When should you visit one?

12 - Breaking the Sight Barrier: Seeing with the power of choice

Appendix A: Finding a Visual Fitness Coach

Appendix B: Research on Vision Therapy





"Focus On Vision Training" Newsgroup

Francine Eisner 17 Jan 2004, 17:02

Thanks, leelee. Do you happen to remember what your vision problem was originally?

You know, I think VT needs to be done regularly at home even if a full course of office training has been given. For myself, certainly, if I didn't do this I would backslide quite a bit. I don't need to practice every day; a couple of times a week usually does it.



leelee 17 Jan 2004, 15:46

I did VT years ago, and at the time it was $40./session. Since I was an adult paying for it myself we working it out that I would come once every 2 weeks and they gave me exercises to do at home in the meantime. I think it lasted about 3 months and the results were very good - I was suddenly able to read for long periods of time with a very low prescription. I'd say the benefits remain today, but deminished.

Francine Eisner 16 Jan 2004, 20:04

It varies but I think it usually costs from $50 -$70 per visit. Usually VT is once or twice a week to start, and an evaluation of progress is made after 12 weeks. A typical course of VT is 6-9 months, depending on the patient's condition and ease of progress.

Sometimes VT is covered by health insurance, sometimes not. Sometimes the VTOD will wrestle with your insurance company and get them to pay even when they object. By law, insurance companies are really not allowed to refuse to pay for VT unless this is specifically mentioned in their literature.

Hope that helps. I think I already posted places to find a VTOD in your area.



guest 16 Jan 2004, 18:30

how much does vision training usually cost?

Francine Eisner 16 Jan 2004, 16:57

Hi Suzanne,

It might be possible. You have to go to a VTOD first, and get a comprehensive eye exam. If you get a course of VT there will be an evaluation after 3 months or so. You'll know by then if it is working, and how well it is working.

Keep in mind that my vision was much worse than yours when I started VT, and it worked really well for me. I haven't worn glasses for years.

You can find a VTOD in your area here:



Francine Eisner 16 Jan 2004, 16:54

Great, Doc, then I'll ask you a question. So what would the effective power of these lenses be?

OD: -1.50, -0.25 x 115

OS: -1.50, -0.25 x 180

OS: add +1.00

Thanks and regards,


DelDoc 16 Jan 2004, 16:34

As an optometrist myself, I'm confident that I'm correct.

Suzanne 16 Jan 2004, 14:25


I would like very much for my vision to improve to the point where the doctor would tell me that I don't need to wear glasses anymore. Is it possible?

Francine Eisner 15 Jan 2004, 05:43

You know, I read what he told me again, and you just may be right. Got to ask again...



Francine Eisner 15 Jan 2004, 05:40

I don't know if this is true, as I was told what I posted by an optometrist.


DelDoc 15 Jan 2004, 05:06

Actually, only half the cylinder power is added to the sphere to calculate the "effective power" (a.k.a. spherical equivalent) of a lens.

Francine Eisner 14 Jan 2004, 16:43

Excuse me, Suzanne, I made some inquiries and the minus sign in front of the cylinder correction is just something done by convention, if the Rx is given by an optometrist. An ophthalmologist commonly gives the Rx for cylinder in positive notation.

OD Plano X -.50 Cyl X 58 axis

OS +.50 X -.75 Cyl X 125 axis

The way this should be read:

OD: Sphere =0, Cylinder = -.50; You add 0 and -.50 to get the effective power of the lens.

=> the effective power of this lens is -.50

OS: Sphere = +.50, Cylinder = -.75

=> the effective power of this lens is -.25

=>You are very slightly nearsighted. You certainly could benefit from Vision Training, and now is the best time to start, before presbyopia sets in. Yes, I think you could reverse these numbers and not need glasses at all, if that is what you wish.



Francine Eisner 13 Jan 2004, 11:06

>Sooner or later as presbyopia sets in you will need to wear glasses sometimes, vision training notwithstanding.

Not necessarily. Suzanne is in her thirties now, and IMO has many more potential years without needing glasses, if she so chooses. I am 51, used to be +2.00 for reading and -1.50 for distance. I don't need either now, after a course of Vision Training. And my vision has remained consistent for about 6 years now.



lentifan 13 Jan 2004, 09:32

Suzanne, you don't say whether the reason you went to Lenscrafters was because you were unhappy with your vision for driving, television etc.

Without wishing to be deliberately controversial you could get a cheap pair of glasses to your Rx and see whether you think they help. If it does, you can then wear them as and when you feel comfortable and get a more expensive pair if you think you look better in them. Sooner or later as presbyopia sets in you will need to wear glasses sometimes, vision training notwithstanding.

 12 Jan 2004, 20:57

Hi Suzanne,

OD Plano X -.50 Cyl X 58 axis

OS +.50 X -.75 Cyl X 125 axis

OD: Oculus Dexter or right eye

OS: Oculus Sinister or left eye

The first number following OD or OS refers to the power of the lens

in diopters. the larger the number, the stronger the lens. A minus

sign means myopia (nearsightedness). A plus sign indicates hyperopia or

far-sightedness. In the example, the left eye is worse than the

right eye, but only slightly. You have some hyperopia, or farsightedness. In other words you are having a little trouble with that eye seeing at near. This is also a symptom of presbyopia, and plus Rx is what is given for that condition as well. Your right eye is plano, or without prescription.

The next numbers indicated astigmatism. The -.50 and -.75 refer to the power of the cylinder, the 58 and 125 refer to the axis.

The way I interpret this, is that you are very slightly farsighted in your right eye, and not at all in your left. The cylinder means you have some astigmatism in both eyes. I am not an expert in Rx and probably there are lots of people here who actually are. But I believe your astigmatism is experienced at a distance, hence the minus Rx in cylinder.

Since you used to have perfect vision, or SEEMED to, in the past, my conclusion is that you are probably suffering from eyestrain and possibly some accommodation problems, which often are symptomatic of presbyopia, even at your age. In other words, you are well on your way toward needing more Rx and experiencing problems both reading and seeing in the distance. You most definitely could benefit from Vision Training, if that is your wish. This would slow down the progress of presbyopia and possibly arrest and reverse it. This was true in my case, and I had a much higher Rx than you do.

You can email me privately about this if you want.

Best regards,


Suzanne 12 Jan 2004, 19:10


I went to Lenscrafters a couple of weeks ago and they prescribed the following for driving and television, etc... My vision a year ago at my physcial was 20/20 in both eyes and I probably could have read further had they let me.

OD Plano X -.50 Cyl X 58 axis

OS +.50 X -.75 Cyl X 125 axis

Can you explain my prescription? Would vision training help? I am in my 30's.

Francine Eisner 06 Jan 2004, 09:37

I think you already know how to do this. It's not something I'm willing to get involved in.


 06 Jan 2004, 00:33

How about vision training to INCREASE myopia and/or presbyopia? Some people here would be into that.

Francine Eisner 05 Jan 2004, 18:12

Dear Tod,

Vision Training can improve, reverse, or cure all sorts of vision problems. It is very effective, and its usefulness has been confirmed by the American Optometric Association. I myself was able to completely arrest my presbyopia, among other things. and reverse it to a substantial degree. My near point of accommodation is now about 8 inches, which is normal for a person much younger than 51, which is my chronological age. I don't need glasses for seeing at a distance, either.

Vision training can arrest the progress of myopia and knock at least a few diopters off your Rx. There is so much that it can do for people.

If you are interested in learning more, read through my postings on this thread and the Vision thread, and follow the links.




Tod 05 Jan 2004, 17:52

what does this vision training stuff have to offer?

Francine Eisner 05 Jan 2004, 09:38

Well, Doc, I think you succeeded, ROTFL...



Daffy Quack, MD way OD 05 Jan 2004, 06:09


Of course we all know what a misanthrop is. Miss Caldonia Anthrop is still listed in the Boston Social Register, as are all the members of New England's founding families. (Hey, I tried.)

Francine Eisner 04 Jan 2004, 23:08

Hehe...a little levity is very welcome here. I don't quite believe that you don't know what a misanthrope is, but maybe you just need a good online dictionary. I mostly use: and*1%2B0

If you want a bit of OT trivia: Spam (the luncheon meat) is very popular in the South Sea islands. Apparently, they are just a generation away from cannabilism, and spam reminds them in color and taste of what they are now missing...?!

BTW they used to force-feed us spam in Girl Scout Camp, and I hated it so much I lost 6 pounds in two weeks, and I had only weighed 86 pounds to begin with.

Go figure...



guest2 04 Jan 2004, 22:36


Francine, please enlighten me. I couldn't find the word in the dictionary, but I have a feeling that I've just been insulted by you...

guest 04 Jan 2004, 19:35

I like Spam! ....once you get it out of the can, it's pretty tasty!

Francine Eisner 04 Jan 2004, 15:47

Spam IS unwanted email, by definition.

Posting about a vision-related subject on a bulletin board about vision & Rx is not prohibited or unwanted. Posting about a vision improvement workshop here is not even OT. If it were, the owner of this board would list it under prohibitions. Flaming is the only thing he HAS prohibited.

Posting about something that one or several group members find uninteresting or irrelevant is not equivalent to spamming.

Calling someone a spammer is making a personal attack. Making a personal attack against a group member is flaming, by definition. Now, who is breaking the rules here?

This are my final words on the subject, as I CERTAINLY have better things to do.

End of story.


Francine Eisner 04 Jan 2004, 15:36

It takes two people to make an argument?

Not really. It takes ONE to START an argument. It feels lousy to be attacked gratuitously. It feels better to defend ones' self.

And regardless of your point of view, you have to consider who started the insults. Calling someone a spammer is certainly an insult. And if you don't think so, well... the guy who called me that DOES.

Frankly, I'm totally disinterested in the opinionsof anyone who thinks it's just fine to insult me, and that I am somehow flawed for trying to defend myself. But I guess this is just great fun for some of you. Talk about having nothing better to do...?!



lentifan 04 Jan 2004, 15:13

Well, it takes two to make an argument.

Francine Eisner 04 Jan 2004, 14:41

Listen, "SPAMMER,"

>VT tips and tricks wanted......

>advertisement for doctor seminars >not wanted.....

This is really nonsense. VT works BEST when done with a VT Optometrist as advisor. It's just too difficult and complicated to do very well on your own. What works best is (Read and learn):

• Getting a complete eye exam from a VTOD

• Learning VT from your VTOD in once-a-week office visits

• Practicing "VT homework" every day, as set up by the VTOD, and inventing stuff to do yourself.

ALL of the above are necessary for optimum improvement. This doesn't mean that one can't noodle around with VT exercises at home. It just means that it won't work as well as the program described above. If it were, I would 'hang out a shingle' and start selling VT exercises off the internet, like the "See Clearly Method" does.

An analogous situation: There are "drugstore glasses" sold but they aren't very good for most people. This is because most people have some astigmatism or their two eyes are not exactly the same in ability. The drugstore glasses actually cause a lot of eyestrain or are just plain not up to the job. If they sufficed, no one would need to go to a vision professional to get their Rx. And being urged to go to a vision professional is not some sort of scam.

So the drugstore glasses, + 1.00 to +3.50, are just used by misanthropes who refuse to go to their eye doctor.

NOW do you understand?

And Ray Gottlieb and Sarah Cobb do not practice conventional VT. They mix it up with other methods that enhance the VT exercises. Dr Gottlieb is truly unique; there is just no one like him.

Furthermore...calling me a spammer turned this thread into an argument, which no one needs. It has all been so unnecessary.

Your notion that you are helpful is rather dubious at best. The only thing that is clear is that you like to argue.


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!! 04 Jan 2004, 13:18

This is driving me crazy! And I'm positive I'm not the only one. Francine has just as much right to post about vision training, events, and doctors as all you myopia-loving people have to post about ruining people's eyes. If you don't want to hear about improving your vision and doctors who do certain kinds of therapy, don't read the posts! It drives me crazy reading Eyescene fights about Francine, fakes, and anything else for that matter. I'm not picking sides here, I'm just saying that if one of you starts fighting and insulting people, the other one should just ignore it. That will be the fastest way to make it stop. Just calm down! Are these fights all you want to read about on Eyescene? If so, keep at it! If not, stop it!

Spammer among us??? 04 Jan 2004, 12:56


Using proper netiquette (something you lack), I have moved this discussion to your VT thread rather then clutter up the vision thread)

Using your tactics....

spammer definition - [noun] someone who sends unwanted email (often in bulk) (do

a google search if you don't believe me)

Read the above carefully, and clue yourself in the word unwanted.

VT tips and tricks wanted......

advertisement for doctor seminars not wanted.....

Get it?

FYI, proper netiquette would have been instead of posting so many times, would be just put a simple link to a web page.

No web page??? Create the web page yourself, and put a simple link to it. No fuss, no muss.

Don't know how to create a web page??? Learn, not so hard to put one together....


trying to be helpful AND been on the newsgroups and web since 1987.

Ray Gottlieb Workshop 03 Jan 2004, 09:37

Hi guys,

To those of you who wish to wear glasses, or who have no choice in the matter, you have my blessing. There are, however, various means of eyesight improvement available and some of these really work.

Ray Gottlieb, OD, Phd, is a groundbreaker in the field of natural vision improvement, and he is highly respected by Optometrists and lay persons alike. He is giving a workshop on the effects of color and light therapy and other methods on vision improvement. This is an unprecedented event.

When: Thursday through Sunday, January 29, 30, 31, and February 1, 2004

Time: 9 am – 5 pm, check-in first day 8:30 am

Where: School for Self-Healing, 2218 48th Avenue, San Francisco

Tuition: $400 for all four days. One day, $130. Two days, $240. Three days, $330

Cayce presentation alone (Sunday, February 1, 3 pm – 5 pm), $15

Bring bag lunch or we’ll carpool to local restaurants

If possible, wear white or light colors on second day for group light experience

For more information, contact: Carol Gallup, email Contact her by phone at School for Self-Healing, 415 665-9574 or fax, 415 665-1318. Or register online at

Francine 05 Dec 2003, 16:22

Another rude person. your cat doing vision exercises?

Well, no one will find your posting, anyway.


lizzi 04 Dec 2003, 11:06

can anyone tell me cat deeley's rx just go to the musicians thread in this website click on the link. find the photos of cat wearing glasses and post back her rx.

Francine 19 Oct 2003, 07:33

Dear glfc,

Thanks so much for the kind words.

Warmest regards,


glfc 19 Oct 2003, 05:13

Francine, I have been catching up on the posts here. I really love your attitude and spirit! I know that there are plenty of people who are interested in vision training, and they will surely benefit from what you are doing. Keep up the good work!

Best wishes,


Francine 17 Oct 2003, 14:00

Hi. The link below is really great for looking up words, and it's absolutely free.


SYLLABICATION: au·to·di·dact

NOUN: A self-taught person.

ETYMOLOGY: From Greek autodidaktos, self-taught : auto-, auto- + didaktos, taught; see didactic.

OTHER FORMS: auto·di·dactic —ADJECTIVE

? 17 Oct 2003, 11:58

what is an autodidact?

Francine 16 Oct 2003, 12:22

Hi Blind Bat,

Actually, I found out about "Eyescene" from someone who posts on a vision improvement site. So I can't say I agree that the general subject matter will scare people away who are into vision improvement. It hasn't scared me away, either.

There is a lot of useful information here, and most people who are "into" vision improvement are autodidacts.

Thanks for your words of approval; it feels good to get them,



Francine 16 Oct 2003, 12:17

To whom it may concern:

Wurm set up this thread in response to a number of people asking for it. So no, I am not in the wrong place. YOU are posting on a thread called Vision Training, and ignoring the topic subject, so it really is quite obvious who is in the wrong place.

As far as my feeling like a vegetarian in a meat packing plant or anything like that...No, not at all. I am simply conveying useful information. Anyone is free to make use of it or not as they wish. Almost everyone with vision problems wears glasses. Some people accept this, others would like an alternative. I don't have a "beef" with the whole world, LOL.


Guest 16 Oct 2003, 08:32

Dear Petty,

when you wear weak plus lenses,

this means reading glasses, although you

don't need any, this means with them on you are kind of like a nearsighted, who can't see in distance so well.

Probably this won't go away, also when wearing them longer.

You should check the glasses your boss gave to you at an optician how strong they are. If they are more than +1 you should change the lenses to +0.75 or +1 not more. With that you should still see

a little worse but not too worse in distance. I guess at work you don't have to look far, Outside for driving you must take them off. Generally don't wear stronger glasses if you don't need them,

you could spoil your eyes, +0,75 if not needed should be really enough. Let them check.

best regards, guest

Blind Bat 16 Oct 2003, 06:30


Basically, what everyone is trying to say, is..... you are trying to promote vision training in the wrong place!

I think vision training is excellent - for those people who wish their eyesight was better and who detest wearing glasses.

If someone wanted to improve their eyesight and they happened to stumble across this site, they would probably read the latest postings and realise it was not for them.

Keep up your good work and maybe leave the vision training thread, but don't be surprised if it goes unnoticed for months at a time.

Bobby 16 Oct 2003, 03:40

Francine, keeping this thread don’t you feel like a vegetarian in a Club of Butchers?

Francine 15 Oct 2003, 20:29

Just in case anyone waltzes through who is wondering what Vision Training is about, this thread has for some reason gone off-topic.

VT is a method of vision improvement, about 100 years old, which is taught by about 1% of Optometrists. They have to take advanced training if they want to offer VT in their practice. Most Optometrists have as the bulk of their practice the usual eye exams and dispensing of eyeglasses and contact lenses. VT is for iconoclasts like me, who didn't want to accept using "compensatory" measures like glasses or contacts when middle age approached.

Vision Training really works, but it's not easy and its effectiveness depends a good deal on how disciplined you are.

Is this a pet subject of mine? You bet it is. VT worked so well for me, I am going back to school to become an optometrist, a task which will take me about 10 years.

Below are many sources of info about VT, if you find yourself interested.





Francine 15 Oct 2003, 20:10

Well, let's see what the moderator thinks of your crass comments.

Carl 15 Oct 2003, 20:02

Francine, pooh on you.


You can get readers at Walgreen that are bifocals so you can see clearly and a distance and the reading part will really make your work easier, and please your boss.

Francine 15 Oct 2003, 19:47

Why don't you guys move to the other threads. This is a thread about Vision Training, which is a method of eyesight improvement.

In other words, you are WAY off-topic.


GwGs 10 Oct 2003, 03:59

Dear Petty,

My fascination with glasses started when i was at school, about 16 years old i borrowed a friends glasses and wore them evening for a couple of hours for about 3 months and as i grew older i became more into glasses and got my own pairs with various prescriptions in.

I don't wear glasses as i have stated before as i can see everything as well as i want to but can accomodate anywhere from -5 to about +2 so the answer to your question is YES, if you wear them regularly for a period of time, your eyes will become use to focusing through (your) glasses.

Anon 09 Oct 2003, 15:38

Hi Petty. It's possible that if you wear the glasses enough that you will be able to see distances through them eventually. Are you hoping to wear the glasses all the time? Maybe you could get your eyes tested. You might find that you do actually need glasses.

Petty 01 Oct 2003, 05:29


my name is Petty and I am 28 years old and I am working as a secretary at a lawyer.

Last month my new boss ask me to wear glasses at the office because he like to see his secretary in glasses. Then he gave me a pair I should try on.

I do but there are RX-lenses inside. He told me they are weak reading lenses and everyone can wear it.

It is no problem to read and to write, but in distance I could not see so well. I wear it now last month only in the office. Do you mean if I wear it all time I will see better in distance soon?

Francine 28 Aug 2003, 18:51

Hi Francine,

>I meant that the site mentioned >below is very incomplete in it's >presentation of what is available.

>The ancient and more >contemporary vision training and >acu-pressure and such is at least >nine times more elaborate than >what is shown there.



Any more info on Chinese Eye Exercises is welcome here. I have my own newsgroup about Vision Training, and in the group files are are list of "adjunct methods" that may be useful in addition to Optometric Vision Training. Chinese Eye Exercises, Yoga, etc are on the list.

VT is a "system," but it is more flexible than most vision improvement methods. The various VTODs I have met or corresponded with each have their own approach, which was based on their original training but many of them are rather creative. Therefore VT as a method is constantly evolving. I myself use(d) VT and added a few other things that I found useful. My own attitude is that one should use "whatever works." There are other vision improvement methods "out there" that insist that you should give up everything else and submit to the "Method." This seems like pure fundamentalist nonsense to me.

Anyway, sorry to be on a soapbox tonight. Please...if you have any more info about other vision improvement methods, please post links here. Or more details about Optometric Vision Training. You see, I am a layperson, although a rather educated one. I found VT very effective, and so I want to share this info with others. I don't claim to be a know-it-all on the subject: Far from it.



Cuopti 28 Aug 2003, 16:50

Hi Sue,

the ancient OR........

too your liking?


Sue 27 Aug 2003, 21:58

How is possible for anything to be ancient AND more contemporary?

Cuopti 27 Aug 2003, 16:44

Hi Francine,

I meant that the site mentioned below is very incomplete in it's presentation of

what is available.

The ancient and more contemporary vision training and acu-pressure and such is at least nine times more elaborate than what is shown there.


Francine 23 Aug 2003, 14:33

> 21 Aug 2003, 16:54

> well that is so incomplete.......

> just one tenth of the training we

> give our pts.



What on earth are you talking about, cuopti???


cuopti 21 Aug 2003, 16:54

well that is so incomplete.......

just one tenth of the training we give our pts.


Francine 20 Jul 2003, 20:30

Hi glfc,

I wish that flash website was in English. But here is another website describing Chinese eye exercises. Perhaps between these descriptions in English and the flash animation we'll have enough info to give these exercises a try.



Francine 19 Jul 2003, 18:02

Great...! I'm going to save all the info on the Chinese vision techniques and take a look at it after the weekend.

I'd like to go to China someday to give lectures on vision training, as I did in India. Maybe I can find a way to do this.



glfc 19 Jul 2003, 17:38

Hello Fran,

I found a Chinese eye exercise flash demonstration. It's exactly what we do at school. I hope it may be useful.

There's also a realplayer format video that I couldn't see for some reason. It popped up in the search so it might be of some relation.

There are also some more descriptions on the process, but unfortunately they are in Chinese are pretty hard to translate. If your computer can display Chinese, then try this google search list. They're all basically about the same thing, but some of them are more detailed.

Chinese medicine and healing methods can be really amazing sometimes. I think Western people should get to know more about it. But I'm sure both traditional Chinese and Western medical techniques have their great advantages. Hospitals in China apply a combination of Chinese and Western medical techniques for ideal treatment.

I also think that the Chinese people will greatly benefit from your vision training technique.

Best Wishes,


Francine 29 Jun 2003, 22:26

Hi glfc,

I have heard of a form of Chinese massage for vision improvement, and I think this is what you are describing. It is very good to promote circulation in the eye area. I do, however, think that comprehensive eye exams (the 21-point test) should also be given yearly to school children, as well as Vision Training. We have calisthenics for the rest of the body, why not for the eyes?

One of my colleagues is now distributing a vision training computer program to the schools in California for that purpose. She has also helped to pass legislation in some states requiring very complete eye tests for children.

I hope that this will be done soon in China as well. China and Japan have a very high incidence of myopia, probably due both to genetic susceptibility and to the intense nearwork that is necessary to succeed academically. One of my friends in Japan has told me he thinks Chinese and Japanese characters are harder to read than Roman (English) script and this is therefore an added stress on the eyes.

I'd like to see Vision Training done in China also. I don't think it exists there yet. I taught some people in India some vision training exercises and they found them very useful. Vision Training is very new in India as well. There are only 3 or 4 Vision-Training Optometrists in India, where there are a billion people.

I'd like to find out more about your eye circulation exercises. I've copied your posting and I will look for more information on the internet. Please do let me know if you find something.

You may find this surprising, but I live in New York and I only go to a Chinese doctor who practices Traditional Chinese Medicine. I have found Chinese herbal medicine to be much more useful than Western medicine. Fortunately we have a large Chinatown near where I live so I was able to find a good doctor there. I also get acupuncture, as I did recently for muscle spasms in my back. I'm basically a healthy person, and his treatment helps to keep me healthy.

Our cultures have alot to learn from eachtother, I think. I hope you join my group and try out the Vision Training exercises as well. If you do so, please introduce yourself. We would love to have you there.



glfc 29 Jun 2003, 05:24

Hello Fran

I¡¯m located in Guangzhou, a city in the southern part of China. I have just visited your site, and have found it very interesting and informative.

The eye exercises that we do in school consists of 4 parts. It is widely used in schools here. I think it¡¯s a little based on Chinese acupuncture, massage or something. It¡¯s supposed to promote blood circulation and help the eyes relax. I don't think it's exactly a type of vision training.

But I¡¯ll try by best to describe it. The music goes on and a nice voice counts 8 beats 8 times, like 12345678, 22345678, 32345678, until 82345678 for each part.

In the first part, We put both of our hands above our eyebrows, exerting pressure with the fingertips on a specific spot. (The fingers of each hand are together, and the thumb-tip is in contact with the index-tip) We rotate (massage) it along with the music.

The second part is done with one hand. You squeeze the bridge of the nose (The part between the two eyes), and pull it up and down along with the music.

In the third part, you anchor both thumbs on the two sides of the chin (lower jaw), and put your index on a spot next to the cheekbone. Then you rotate (massage) it along with the music.

In the fourth and last part, you anchor both thumbs on the temple, and use the bottom joint of both indexes to massage the part just above and below the eye outwards.

I¡¯m sorry I can¡¯t describe it clearly, as my English vocabulary is limited. I¡¯ll try to find a demonstration video somewhere on the internet.

Francine 18 Jun 2003, 20:15

Dear Bob,

There are a number of methods used for myopia reduction but I don't believe that many VTODs use Trachtman's myopter. It is not a good idea to try to correct your own myopia without getting a complete eye exam from a VTOD, BTW. This is a much more extensive series of tests than you will get from a regular OD or Ophthalmologist.The reason a diagnostic exam is important is that not all myopes have the same visin problems. Some have convergence and accommodation problems at near, and this was the original trigger for their myopia. Others become exophoric (overdivergence) when they attempt to see clearly at a distance. There are many variations.

IMO the best way to improve your vision whether you have myopia, presbyopia, etc. is to go to a VTOD and then get creative with your home practices, which is what I did. A VTOD will likely work on your convergence and accommodation, as well as the ability to switch from near to far. Many VTODs believe that eyeballs dont' actually elongate unless myopia is very advanced.

Some people, pilots mostly, have used the "plus lens method" to improve their myopia. I believe that it works very well for some people. You might try a combination of methods, such as VT, plus lens, and Bates, which creates a state of relaxation that is always helpful for vision improvement.

If you'd like more info about any of these methods you can email me privately. Also feel free to take a look at my Yahoo Group on Vision Training, and my website.



Focus On...Vision Training Yahoo Newsgroup

Fran's Vision Training Home Page

Bob W 18 Jun 2003, 10:49

Hi All

I went in to the VTOD archives to see what I could see. The way to use those, I think, is to search using a subject. I did some searches based on "reduce myopia", and found some interesting results.

I came across references to an interesting biofeedback instrument, apparently from the '70's, probably cost at a minimum of a few thousand $'s. Apparently released a sound when accurate focus was achieved at somewhat beyond the far point of focus, as far as I can make out. A Dr. Trachtman, a published researcher, was behind that.

Some one else pointed out that perhaps the same effect could be created by using a "Schur-Mark BO 8-1 card". This sounds like a hand Snellen card or some other focusing card. Maybe some OD on this site could fill us in. I tried to search for a reference with no luck. It makes sense, because the focusing itself would provide the necessary feedback needed to reinforce the neuro system. That would be a whole lot less expensive.

More recently, some drug related to atropine was tested that didn't affect the ciliary muscles directly, but still unknown what it does. Doesn't sound promising.

No large number of medical type Double Blind Crossover trials on anything, except the drug would have to go through that for approval, and it sounds like that one died.

Hope someone else can shed some light on some of this, or go through the archives with other searches.

Best regards, Bob W.

Francine 10 Jun 2003, 21:26

I would like to recommend to anyone interested in Vision Training that they read the VTOD-L list. These folks know a heck of lot more than I do, as they are the professionals in the field

Have fun...! It's very interesting reading...



Francine 01 Jun 2003, 22:18


Once again I am cross-posting info from my own group, "Focus On Vision Training."

From:  "Francine" <>

Date:  Sun May 18, 2003  12:45 am

Subject:  Other Methods of Vision Training...Re: Amblyopia in particular

Hi Folks,

You know how I am always trying to get you guys to go to a Vision -Training Optometrist? Well, there's a good reason why I do! Vision Training is a very complicated affair, and while I am a good coach, I simply don't have the knowledge of a VTOD at this point.

I am posting the following to show you guys just how complicated Vision Training can be. "Gus" is a seasoned VTOD, who has been in practice about 50 years. The following is his description of a rather unconventional method of treating amblyopia, or lazy eye. You probably know that this condition,

especially in children, is usually treated by both Ophthalmologists and VTODs by patching the GOOD eye. VTODs use vision training along with the patching, and some don't patch at all. But the following statement involves patching the AMBLYOPIC, or WEAK eye. The SUPPRESSED eye. Why is this done? Apparently, the patching is done by only covering the central portion of the eye, and the strategy is to uncover when training ONLY, I believe...

Anyway, read "Gus's" statement, and you will see why you will probably do better at improving your vision by consulting an expert, and using this group just as a place of support. A really good VTOD will try one method, and if it doesn't seem to be working he will have lots of other methods "up his sleeve."

Read on...




Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 21:31:09 EDT

Sender: Vision Therapy OD's <

From: Constantine Forkiotis (Gus)


To All; Many years ago during our Gesell monthly Study Group we had extensive discussions on eye patching/occlussion. We had reasoned that the many year of occluding the good eye had poor results in progress or success for the Amblyopia eye. There is no law or rule that claims it must work. Further more any purposeful reduction or restriction in function and performance for any body part does have a direct direction of atrophy to some degree. Our reasoning evolved that the Amblyopia eye be the

one that was to be occluded 3 to 4 times a day both eyes were closed while the patch was moved to the good eye. Thus, the Amblyopia eye was exposed to light with instructions to perform specific procedures, as smooth pursuits, eye hand tasks, hand use on the same side as the open eye, etc.The eye are then closed and the patch returned to the Amblyopia eye. The Amblyopia eye was therefore opened only under conditions of instruction. Uncovering the Amblyopia eye and exposing the eye and input to the brain created after images that had to be dealt

with to varying degrees as soon as the patch was returned to the eye.

The procedure is/was quite effective with active well involved parents which are not many in number.

My personal experience has resulted in greater success in teaching the patient how to use 3/4 inch Translucent Scotch Tape. With Amblyopia we are more concerned with the central vision and visual acuity and the fovea/macula regions [central part of the retina]. Yet the total patching reduces the efficiency of

the peripheral retina which is involved with motion and movement and body balance. Therefore for better and faster results I have instructed that the 3/4 inch scotch tape be placed down the center of the lens guiding continued use of the

peripheral retinal elements while alternating the use of the fovea of each eye. The same rule applies. When changing from the one eye to the other always close both eyes while changing the tape to the opposite eye to capitalize on the after image affects.

[In such cases] It is rare to have to listen to the raging old time battles between parents and the child who is absolutely not willing to condone the discomfort of total eye patching. In cases where eyeglasses or distance Rx was not involved we used a plain eyeglass frame with the tape added in the center as described above. The fastest result was in an adult patient vying for an occupation requiring 20/20 and binocular organization. Within 6 weeks he was on the way. I'd be a millionaire if I could effect that progress with every patient.

– gus

**Note: [...] bracketed statements added for clarification.

– Fran

Francine 28 May 2003, 06:19

Here's a nice simple intro to the Vision Training, produced by Indiana University:



Francine 26 May 2003, 21:13

Sorry about the (previous) posting looking so scewy. I have no idea WHY this happens. Maybe someone else has a clue...


Francine 26 May 2003, 09:23

Well, thanks for putting this in as a separate category. As my first venture, I am going to cross-post from my own group, "Focus On...Vision Training." Here goes:

Date:  Mon May 26, 2003  12:07 pm

Subject:  The benefits of EXERCISE on vision improvement...

Hi guys,

Awhile ago someone posted that belly-rubbing is good for vision

improvement, and I objected to that posting being on this [my] group, as I doubt it's usefulness. I still have doubts about belly-rubbing, BUT:

There ARE other things one can do to enhance the effects of doing vision exercises, and regular physical exercise in general is one of them. I noticed very early on that my home training sessions went better if I had just come from the gym. So whenever I could, I did things to improve my metabolism. Anything that gets the circulation up is good: Walking, aerobics, weight-lifting, running, etc. I used to get off at the wrong subway stop on purpose, so that I had to walk about a mile to my VTOD's office. My office practice sessions went very well on the days that I took that walk. Below is a posting from a VTOD on a forum they

frequent. And some of them literally make their offices an exercise gym...! See below:

Quoted from VTOD list:

"Especially in the early sessions that are so developmentally heavy, I found that the week at home of doing feet only jumping jacks,long swings, marching, skipping or jumping rope starting at the level that just challenges them in the office can work miracles! The children benefit neurologically from gross motor

and bilateral integration activities before we ever start on binocular coordination activities, they feel a sense of accomplishment that spurs them on for therapy, and the parents

see huge changes right away which is nice when they have just

paid me $$$$."

BTW I have mentioned that I employed some Bates exercises in

my training as well. This was my own choice, not that of my VTODs. I believe that sunning improved the circulation around my eyes and that this was the reason why it is helpful.